rb
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by rb on Oct 28, 2018 7:50:10 GMT
Hi,
Sounding out my thoughts, advice appreciated. Find the front forks on my mt10 too soft with a small range of damping adjustment. Cartridge kits are too expensive for me, so was thinking of swapping internals from a standard r1. I know these are on the firmer side, but would be interested to know how they compare.
cheers,
Rich
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Post by X Plane on Oct 28, 2018 9:02:27 GMT
Hi, Sounding out my thoughts, advice appreciated. Find the front forks on my mt10 too soft with a small range of damping adjustment. Cartridge kits are too expensive for me, so was thinking of swapping internals from a standard r1. I know these are on the firmer side, but would be interested to know how they compare. cheers, Rich Sorry can’t help no experience regarding R1 fork inners. I stayed with standard forks as rarely is full travel used on road. I changed quirky rearshock to a Nitron R3 rear shock and I feel the forks to rear balance is fine now for my 100kg in gear road riding. The vid below includes a humpback bridge @ 00:43. I do the cable tie round fork slider thing and I’ve found that the fork travel on average is about an ideal 80%. I think any harder would be getting to the quite harsh state. Think my fork settings for above vid were softer than standard at: Front Springs Sag 34 mm, Pre Load 7 turns in, that is -2 softer Front Compression Damping 20 turns out, that is -3 softer Front Rebound Damping 7 turns out that is -1 softer I’ve changed Fork Oil at 2 years old / 15k miles mark and they are now set as: Front Sag 31 mm Pre Load 9.25 Turns C/W In (Set as Standard) Front Compression Damping -18 Clicks AC/W Out (-1 softer from Standard) Front Rebound Damping -7 Clicks AC/W Out (-1 softer from Standard) This vid below is same bit of road as vid above you can see better view of bridge at 1:11 I find standard forks around the standard setting copes for fast (bumpy) N.Irish roads. Though I am sure Nitron fork kit be good but not as big an upgrade as their shock is to the stock shock. Hope this is useful.
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rb
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by rb on Oct 28, 2018 21:38:05 GMT
Thanks for reply mate,
Good too see your settings. Got mine too my preffered setting after much experiment. Was 14 turns preload, comp 3 out, reb 6 out. More rebound felt better but didn't help fork travel (held down towards bottom of stroke) I'm 85kg geared up. Also pulled forks through yolks by 8mm, thinking this maybe weighting the front too much, but as standard the bike felt low at the rear. Was thinking that r1 forks may give me more room for adjustment (on firmer side) Task for the winter I think!
Cheers,
Rich
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Post by exuptoy on Jul 9, 2019 22:54:15 GMT
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mario
Full Member
Posts: 72
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Post by mario on Jul 10, 2019 13:58:38 GMT
Truthfully I am quite surprised you feel the bike is too soft. Most people I have had conversations with complain it is too stiff, from lighter guys who weight 75kg in full kit to guys that are nearly 100kg in full kit. So that's a bit odd.
Also, I can see you have added 5 turns of preload (stock setting is 9) in the hopes it will make things stiff. Problem is, adding preload will not stiffen the front end, it does not change the spring rate, it will only raise the bike. These bikes sit high at the front and low at the rear as it is. I have setup a few and most people do not feel the need for geometry changes such as dropping the yokes. I am going to copy and paste a reply I posted in another thread on here (slightly modified to suit this thread), because it all stands true. Before you go out and spend money on cartridge kits, get your bike setup properly....
First thing I will say is go back to basics. Altering the fork position will alter the horizontal & vertical centre of gravity, it will reduce rake, reduce trail, alter dynamic loading, etc. It has massive implications on the geometry of the bike and is not something you should be adjusting on a whim without first setting up the basics.
I am up in Scotland, so I if you are nearby, I can do it for you, but if not, I will explain the methodology I go through. First, return the bike to stock settings to get a baseline to work from. Next, set the RIDER SAGS, not static sags, until bikes can ride themselves, static sags are meaningless. As an example, a bike with static sag of say 22mm will not ride the same when you have a 100kg rider on it vs a 50kg rider. Not to mention, a 100kg rider on a small bike that weighs 100kg will have less static sag than when riding a bike that weighs 200kg with the correct spring rates in both. Hence, set the sags for you, the rider, not the bike.
Aim for approx 35mm on the front & 30mm on the rear as a good solid starting point, depending on the where you end up in the adjuster range will determine if the springs are suitable, but from experience with riders of your weight, starting from stock settings, I can guarantee you will end up at 0 preload and still not achieve 35mm of rider sag. The bike is over sprung at the front for you. On the rear you should be able to dial in the correct preload for your weight, it's actually not too badly sprung for someone of your weight.
Next, adjust rebound and compression damping, this is really something you do by feel, so I can’t explain it on a forum post, but Dave Moss does show you roughly how it’s done in his videos.
Once you have that done, you have a baseline, if the springs were too stiff or too soft based on where your settings ended up after you got the rider sag setup, then look at respringing the bike.
It is at this point, and only this point, once the bike has been correctly sprung and you have a reasonable damping adjustment that you should decide on next steps. These steps may well be to drop the yokes, but not 20mm at a time or something as large as that, adjustments of just 3-5mm can be noticed. You might not feel the need to even drop the yokes once you get on the right track with sag settings. The next step may be to get the suspension revalved to provide better adjustment to dial in the damping better and reduce compromise, etc.
Not to mention, if you get the sag settings adjusted properly for you and going by experience you will be removing front preload and adding rear preload it will in turn lower the front, raise the rear, make the bike sit flatter and negate the need to drop the yokes, the sag adjustments will alter the pitch of the bike on their own.
However, until you do the basics (sags, baseline damping setup & respring if needed) I would seriously recommend avoiding geometry changes when you don’t understand what they really do.
Suspension setup is not black magic, it’s not a dark art, it’s a technical discipline just like engineering and you have to be methodical and precise in your approach to yield the best results, but blindly making adjustments without a full understanding of how they will alter the dynamics of the bike is not the way to go about it.
As an example, even simply moving the wheel front and back in the swingarm will alter things like how agile the bike flicks, anti-squat, rear ride height, CG location, etc, etc. People always say "make 1 change at a time" and even that is not possible, because while you can make 1 single adjustment, it will in turn change 3 or 4 different things, to properly setup your suspension, you need to understand this and what will be altered by changing a particular setting.
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rb
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by rb on Jul 10, 2019 18:56:41 GMT
Hey Mario, Thanks for the reply, appreciate your help. Apologies to the forum, as I forgot to update on what I done to solve my issues. Here’s my update- I tinkered with the Oe forks, and to be honest, I followed the forums, Dave moss and most other internet suspension ‘gurus’ and I still couldn’t find what I was after. It led me to the conclusion that I don’t know what I’m doing, and following others settings only gave a brief, psycosematic improvement, then once that wore off and I read something else on the web, I was back tinkering! Then I set it all back to standard, sags correct and geometry standard. Still the same issues. When I say issues, it’s not as if it bad (were all lucky to be able to own these bikes) but it just didn’t feel ‘for me’. My complaint was the springs were too soft (frequently bottomed forks on road) yet the ride was slightly harsh at cruising speed. I couldn’t figure out how this could be! So towards the end of last year I thought, I need a real life, professional, reputable guy who I can talk to, and trust him to send me in the right direction. I soon chose Darren from mct suspension in Stowe market. Darren converted a r1m electronic ohlins rear shock to manual adjusters for me previously. He totally agreed with me when I told him what a felt, and said whilst the internals are very good quality, the springs are too soft and the oil doesn’t work well with the cartridge design. So I sent the forks to him, he did the modifications, and got them gold coated (mmm gold!) What a difference! The front now feels so supportive, smooth, beautifully damped and capable. He also said to set the front forks flush with the top yoke (so different to all other advice) in order to help weight transfer. This is such a good set up. I’m new too track days and last year I went too cadwell park for my first one (before mods) and had a amazing time and rode at a respectable pace (thanks too terry rymer racing) but shredded my front and rear tyres. It was a Michelin power day (great events) and I showed them to the Michelin guy, who said ‘who the fuck set this up, stevie wonder! How did you ride that’ Didn’t dare tell him I copied the Dave moss set up off the internet! Certainly didn’t work for me, bike was so heavy on the front end and lacked rear traction. I did my second trackday at the end of last year at my local croft, different to cadwell but even back to standard set up, the bike felt like it was harder too ride than it should be. This year I have done a further 2 croft days, with the new forks and set up advice it is now sooo much better. Everything is stable and easy, the bike is no longer a see saw (over exaggeration!) I can ride how I like too, be kind on tyres and not even bother touching anything set up wise! Then ride home in comfort! Is night and day to where I was, and to me, worth every penny. So in conclusion, I got so immersed in the internet set ups and Dave moss advice, it kind of kidded me into thinking I knew what I was doing, but in reality I was making a pigs ear of it. I agree it’s not rocket science, but with Darren’s workmanship and advice, I now feel like I have a tailored bike, and now I have some spare brain power to compute what’s happening underneath me, and if I feel a change is needed, I ring him first and have a good chat and he will suggest a change! I do hope this helps someone, but totally understand it’s so individual. Cheers, Rich
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Post by exuptoy on Jul 10, 2019 21:13:31 GMT
Nice one rb, what did Darren charge for the fork transformation?
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rb
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by rb on Jul 10, 2019 21:19:25 GMT
I think it was £475, but that was with the anodising and polishing of fork legs (weren’t necessary though).
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Post by charwood23 on Jul 11, 2019 13:34:45 GMT
That actually sounds like value for money.
I also hear what your saying about the internet making us think we know what are doing.
I dialled mine in to that used by BJ from Fast bikes and his blog. It was a massive improvement but boy was it harsh even though we are similar size and build.
I finally had mine set up professionally by a local mech and racer and the bike is now a wonder to ride. All it cost me was 45minites labour and I got my MOT done at the same time.
Suspension set up will be the first thing ever do now on any bike form now on.
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Post by theculturalattache on Jul 11, 2019 14:02:32 GMT
I had the forks resprung and serviced on my zzr1400 by MCT about 2 years ago.
Made a big difference,Darren really knows how to set it up.
MCT are very highly rated on the zzr1400 forum.
Think i'll admit defeat on watching videos and send my forks to Darren.
Only thing is I am not keen on posting forks,I used to be a postman once upon a time...
Seem to remember it was about 250 quid for the kwak last time, and well worth it.
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Post by ccmcfadyen on Aug 1, 2019 21:32:29 GMT
I would go with stiffer springs and maybe a heavier weight oil in the front.
I think the OE weight is 5w
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Post by X Plane on Aug 3, 2019 18:40:24 GMT
I’d forget the BJ bLog man’s first initial set-up as that was done solely by the feel of pushing a stationary bike front end down etc for a real aggressive quick rider without the setter even doing any riding. If around a 100kg rider then the forks can be got to work brilliantly for a spirited fastish road rider. Who has replaced their fork oil after a year / 10000 miles? me I have changed fork oil and that helps. I also found backing off the preload a few turns and lessening the compression damping 1 or 2 clicks and rebound off 1 click sorted the forks for me and the way that I ride. A few thousand miles on the bike helps and new (OEM original) KYB 01M fork oil has my forks working great for me.
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Post by dangermouse on Aug 25, 2019 1:01:17 GMT
It amazes me hat you find the front-end too soft - I'm a lot heavier than you but have no problems with the front end road or track. I've wound on a bit of pre-load and upped the rebound damping - I still have a few mms of travel left. The rear is a bit undersprung - agreed, but the front is pretty good IMHO.
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Post by X Plane on Nov 10, 2019 20:25:33 GMT
It amazes me hat you find the front-end too soft - I'm a lot heavier than you but have no problems with the front end road or track. I've wound on a bit of pre-load and upped the rebound damping - I still have a few mms of travel left. The rear is a bit undersprung - agreed, but the front is pretty good IMHO. I agree with Dangermouse.
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